Over the last several years we have been asked a good amount of questions about 1018 Forged steel also known as “soft steel”, and for the last several years I have been inquiring about its availability in raw head form and bar form for our projects with various Japanese brands.
All is not what it appears to be…
Let’s not beat around the bush, I will tell you straight that Japan doesn’t offer S18C or 1018. JIS grade S18C doesn’t exist. No Japan Factory can source a Japanese version of this steel because it only comes from mainland China.
In fact not even the Taiwanese manufactures use it as it’s not a quality metal for golf clubs and can’t be used for precise applications due to irregular quality. For example if you had 5 blocks or sheets of this material no two would have the same amount of carbon and not nearly in an acceptable tolerance, some would have far too much carbon and some much less and because of this Japan will not use it. It is often used widely for not so precise applications like screws.
In my recent trip to China the top iron manufactures did not suggest it for golf club use and warned strongly against it. When comparing the price to other materials it’s by far the cheapest although even in China they were adamant about not using 1018 for golf clubs.
So I continued to entertain the idea and found out the end result was that IF it was ever used for a Golf iron head it would not be any softer than S25C or 1025C or more firm than S10C or 1010C after the heat treatment process. S10C or S15C with high heat treatment is the same as S25C forged with a lower heat higher pressure machine.
The reason to use a softer metal like 1018 is first and foremost to save money but to also allow it to be formed using an outdated or weakened forging press. 1018 requires less pressure to forge into shape at a much lower heat than conventional golf club forged steel while S25C requires a high pressure higher heat machine. But even the most dated lowest ton press machines in Japan, Taiwan, and China can handle S25C/1025 making using 1018 steel for golf clubs unnecessary and confirmed by just about every foundry in Japan to be a total waste of time because you would have to import a much lower quality steel from China to Japan only to run into a variety of quality issues. It simply makes no sense as all.
Today the most stable material for golf clubs is S25C JIS grade from Japan.
To read the most controversial and shocking part of this blog post click “Read More” located below….
Miura used to purchase JIS S15C raw heads for wedges ” I don’t say “Miura Forged” any longer after I found out they don’t have a forging press ” I apologize for believing that they forged golf clubs but this was a commonly held misconception by the masses in the Golf Industry. I’ve seen pictures of Miura & his staff in front of a forging press but I know that those were staged photos and taken at another factory to create the impression that the product was forged by Miura. What!? Am I saying that Miura doesn’t forge their own golf clubs? That’s exactly what I am saying!
It’s kind of funny because people who actually run these presses at the various factories have asked me “do you believe that Miura Forgings feel superior or different than others?” My answer would always be yes and they would laugh at me, and then set me straight. No knocks against Miura San because he is an amazing grinder but it’s kind of funny how we were all fooled into believing it without them actually saying themselves that they forged golf clubs directly.
**update** Something I should clarify In regards to Miura forging: The foundry Miura purchases their forgings from does 90% of the forging then Miura reheats it and uses a small pressing machine to smooth the surface.
Still they are not forged in house just waned to update you guy’s with that latest tid bit. Not discrediting the brand in anyway they make SOLID product.
In the end all factories in Japan, Taiwan, and China were against the use of 1018 steel in golf club applications mostly due to having grooves mashing on the face at low swing speeds if not hardened to the same level as S25C but even if it is hardened to that extent it would make no sense to do so as its already a lower quality material than anything Japan uses to make golf clubs.
I know what some are thinking now…Does Scratch golf use inferior 1018metal to make their irons and wedges?
My answer is NO they don’t because they use S25C not 1018 as they advertise.
How can I say that?!
The factory that produces and owns the open model molds they use has never used 1018, they use S25C. They have used various manufactures over the years and none of them use 1018, they use S25C. Another reason was that many years ago we produced a wedge with the help of Scratch called the TSG wedge some of you may remember it had our logo and some Katakana on the back of it and we were told it was 1018 Ishihara forged. It was actually S25C forged by Kyoei and this is 100% confirmed.
The last thing that leads me to believe that they didn’t use 1018 was because Mr. Ishihara like Mr. Miura was not a forging company they were just small companies with a grind staff and perhaps that’s why we have seen Scratch stray away from the term “Ishihara Forged”.
Sad part is that Golf Digest actually prints this without fact checking it and it causes a lot of misinformation and confusion about Japanese golf manufacturing and material use.
If in doubt ask the them to display their official materials certificate and we can have it fact checked.
So who find’s this shocking? Who’s fault is it that these misconceptions are now wide spread? Golf Digest for printing it? Miura’s because people believe it or Scratch for advertising it?
Vote in the Poll!
[poll id=”17″]
Wowser… talk about setting the cat amongst the pigeons Chris! I can see a rash of threads across various sites as a result of this. I’ve never liked the look of Muira’s but always thought they were a reputable co…… not anymore. Materials used and forging to me always seem more importatnt than the end shape (although this is important) and to mislead a gullible public is pretty low in my book.
Kudos to you for investigating this and having the stones to publish it.
“The factory that produces and owns the open model molds” what does that sentence mean? I have scratch wedges are you trying to tell me that they are not made of what they say it is?
Ground level reporting that brings out eye opening facts because you went inside the whole story. This reporting only reinforces my confidence in GTI and TSG.
Several things are false about the statements scratch has used:
– “Softest Steel used by any golf company that forges golf clubs”. 1) It’s not 1018 like they say. But even if it was, other brands have used S15C which is not only softer but at a much higher quality rated by the JIS. Two brands off the top of my head that used S15C are Miura & Yururi.
– “Ishihara Forged” – Scratch website says their clubs are made by Ishihara-shoten. Ishihara-shoten does NOT forge golf clubs. They are a middle man between the company and manufacturer.
Everyone inside the manufacturing leg of the Japan golf industry knows that those claims are untruthful. Just like they all know that Miura doesnt forge golf clubs. Nobody knew this in the U.S. It was printed on paper and all over the web, and people just began to believe it.
Bridgestone used to advertise 1020 forged! Guess they weren’t telling the truth either.
We have to watch what we say because this is how rumors are started. Endo uses 1020 JIS grade and Bridgestone/Tourstage makes their premium clubs at Endo. We seen TourStage (amongst other brands such as Callaway) in production when we took our tour of the Endo forging factory, so we know first hand.
There is nothing wrong with Bridgestone’s statement and it was true.
In Japan, JIS has approved S10-S15-S20-S25 etc.. for manufacturing golf clubs.
So does that means the best material for golf irons is S25C?
It’s a toss up between S20C & S25C. They both are Premium grade JIS standard and the most stable for forging. It’s important that the forging is JIS, if it isn’t the quality of forging is not up to the standards of the Japanese.
Between S20C & S25C, oddly enough the player will not notice a difference in feel. The people who run Endo informed us that feel comes from the club design, loft, and bounce of a club.
Wow, so why do the scratch heads have 1018 etched in the hosel? I’ve owned two sets and recently switche to the Epon 302s, I was going to order another set of Scratch irons but they take way to long, now that I read this I’m glad I went Epon.
You can etch anything you want on a golf club. There is a one time setup fee then after that it’s very cheap.
Problem with the golf industry is there is no accountability. A popular shaft company can get away with writing 80 Ton all over a 20 Ton shaft as long as they pay for it. It’s manufactured as part of the the “product design”, rather than what the product really is. Worse part is there is no way to tell unless you provide a materials certificate.
Same deal with metals, Brands know that no one will cut the head open and use a uber expensive microscope to check things out.
I don’t believe that it is a big deal assuming that the heads they used are all forged by quality manufacturers. It does make it a littlle more unique for companies like Endo that seem to do it all themselves from design to manufacture to finish to fit. That does carry some “value” to me personally although I understand that the “lesser” club may end up being a better fit! Just because it’s built the best doesn’t mean that it will be the best for any individual golfer.
Thanks Lennie,
You’re right. They do use forged heads from a quality manufacturer, but the reason for posting this was to inform people of the misconceptions of Japanese golf club manufaturing led by rumors and false advertising. Scratch and Miura were just well known examples of this. I think knowledgeable customers can make better decisions for themselves.
first off thanx for posting this, interesting stuff! can you explain to ignorant folks like me how does this work exactly ? so company like Miura orders bunch of heads presumably supplying their desired specs to third party forge then grinds them then sells them to consumers ? their website actually implies that they do forge them or at least their control the forging process to great extent [ or is it just part of the specs third party forge can accommodate for them ? ]. unfortunately its a flash presentation but if you navigate to http://www.miuragolf.com -> Manufacturing techniques then click on Manufacturing Techniques inside flash presentation you will see what i mean. they also describe their two piece head manufacturing where heads and hosels are produced separately then welded together. from what i know most other clubs are one piece forgings [ like Mizuno for instance ]. i have no idea whether one technique is better than the other and thats really not the point. the point is i’m trying to figure out how much companies like Miura actually contribute in terms of R&D into their design and forging techniques. the factory is the factory in the end of the day. if club manufacturer develops their forging recipe from A to Z and gives it to third party forge to follow thats one thing and is in fact perfectly normal in my book. its hard to imagine small companies working niche market being able to afford all that heavy grade manufacturing equipment which i can imagine is quite expensive to procure and operate for low volumes. on the other hand if they just do their grinding on heads developed by third party ie forging process, steel selection etc thats another thing. my understanding is that grinding is still a big deal but then if your company does just that there is simply no reason to bs people about unique forging process and things like that ie things they didnt really develop and control. so can you please expand on that stuff a wee bit ? i’d like to understand more how this whole thing works because i believe its gonna help me make a more informed buying decisions in the future.
and one more thing. kinda reminds me of Japanese swords making process. real Nihonto blade is always hand made including forging, grinding and polishing. its alot of work and and time and the price for real Nihonto reflects that and i’m not even talking antique blades here with their art value etc. imagine people making golf clubs like that. how much would it set you back for a set and would you be willing to pay that much ? i know some people probably would. what about the shaft and grip ? can these be hand made as well and exceed mass manufactured versions in their performance ? shafts especially so.
and just for the record : i own entry level off the shelf Mizuno forged irons so i do not have any illusions about them irons and not trying to defend any manufacturers here, just interested to figure this out is all.
Hi Anton sorry for the late reply.
In regards to your question about Miura. The one piece is superior to the 2 piece and the reason why they use 2 piece is because its easier and more affordable, it allows them to press the head on a flat mold 2D instead of a 3D mold. The mold cost goes way down.
They spin the hosel piece so fast and cause friction heat then it can be attached to the head. This is a good way to keep tolorence tight and a clever way to do it BUT the head must be started from the hosel to the toe and once the master mold is separated in two it will not come back to original shape of master heads design.
in regards to making a golf club like they used to make Nihonto swords, its pretty much impossible. Making a golf club is far more complicated than making a sword.
@Tourspecgolfer:
thanx for explaining two piece design thing, makes sense. i actually just re-read your original post and figured out that they purchase the same raw heads as you do. so that basically means all the blah-blah-blah re Miura developed unique forging process on their website is just plain BS ? they dint develop their forging process if they buy the same raw heads as everybody else, right ? the forging process itself might be unique but its not theirs, its certainly not exclusive to them, maybe exclusive to that specific forge but not to Miura ? and if thats true i’m curious which Japanese golf companies do their own forgings these days ? i know Mizuno does or at least i’m led to believe that based on the info they provide on their website. again, thanx for the inside scoop. i’m sure they all extremely good clubs anyway its just that the whole false advertizing thing kinda sucks.
Hi Anton, From what I understand the 2 piece head forgings is unique and it is something that makes Miura Different. However what I am told is that the technology was created by Kyoei Golf when Mr. Miura worked there as a grinder.
In a way the Miura process is unique but they do not forge the clubs themselves. The foundry that supplies Miura may or may not be the East Osaka one I am reffering to. It could also be the one very close to the Amaji Station in Bantan line in Himeji. That one you can see them working outside from the train but we do know he has purchased heads there as well for a very long time.
The foundry produces the raw head using Mr. Miura’s molds and requests and Miura grinds those into his product and then sends out for plating. The misconception is that Miura forges their own clubs in house and some think they handle their plating also.
No small brands forge their own clubs. It’s not economically feasable as no small brands need to produce 3000 sets a day.
From what I know Mizuno doesnt forge their clubs in house either they use a foundry that exclusively forges Mizuno clubs inside the golf industry amoung products for other brands in other industries. Mizuno isn’t simply a golf company they do much much more. They have also used other foundries in the past to achive certain technologies that theirs can’t produce. Also many think that their Japan foundry can’t handle nearly the capacity that Mizuno needs and that it could be outsourced to another country.
Thank you very much for your reply. Your Message@Tourspecgolfer:
**update** Something I should clarify In regards to Miura forging: The foundry Miura purchases their forgings from does 90% of the forging then Miura reheats it and uses a small pressing machine to smooth the surface.
Still they are not forged in house just waned to update you guy’s with that latest tid bit. Not discrediting the brand in anyway they make SOLID product.
thanks for this report…We all knew it…we all suspected it…but were refusing to believe in order to be eagerly parted with our hard earned money. The club makers were happy to oblige.
Your Message@T. Goda:
NOPE THOSE CLUBS ARE TERRIBLE AT BEST . THEY HVE NO FEED BACK TOOOOOO SOFT, CHEAP METAL DUDE.
here is another one : Fourteen 2010 TC-910 Forged Irons. these made 2010 Golf Digest hotlist as Players Iron btw.
Tour Spec Golf webpage says that are ‘forged by Endo’
http://www.tourspecgolf.com/Fourteen-2010-TC910-Forged-4PW
which seems to be correct but Fourteen Golf official manufacturer page says :
ORIGIN
・HEAD：MADE IN THAILAND
・SHAFT：MADE IN JAPAN
・ASSEMBLED IN JAPAN
http://www.fourteengolf.com/product/detail.shtml?P=51
Endo Manufacturing Co.,Ltd. has Golf club heads making plants in THAILAND according to their website so those heads are not made in Japan tho they are made by Endo. i was under impression made Endo = made in Japan before i read this.
the statement about shafts is even more confusing because all DG shafts i’ve seen bear ‘made in USA’ on them. i mean i wont be surprised to learn they are actually made elsewhere completely or depending on target geo [shipping/taxes/etc] after reading all this and trying to figure out whats really behind all that marketing.
again, in no way i’m saying those are bad clubs or components or manufacturing or anything. this is just another example of the same really. in this case tho at least Fourteen Golf seems to be honest about their product and manufacturing process.
Hi Anton,
Endo does have a plant in Thailand. Its the same process and JIS grade materials as their Japan HQ plant.
Also another factor is where the final product is supposed to go. IMO if its for the Japanese market it makes sense to produce it in Japan to avoid shipping and taxes and keep it with their own country.
Also sometimes based on factory capactiy, they may forge in Japan and finish in Thailand. Keep in mind there is no difference, its still Endo, still Japanese run just hte location of the plant is different.
From what I understand the staff that handles the most important jobs in Thailand Endo are all Japanese anyway. The Thailand plant is also focused on Auto parts and medical products.
The shaft thing confuses me as well.
Your Message@Anton:
The DG shafts that we use are made in the USA. It was a typo that should be corrected very soon. In Japan the TC910 iron is available in DG or Nippon Steel so the webmaster might have been thinking Nippon Steel which is made in Japan. Regardless, it was a mistake and it is being taken care of. Thank you for the heads up and also thanks for compliments.
Your Message@TourSpecGolfer:
Thks for the information about Japanese brands’ forged irons especially Mirua as I am going to buy a set of forged irons from choices Yamaha and Mirua. Can you guys advise me which is better? I am using a very old model Mizuno beginner irons & have played for 4 yreas already.
It depends on where your game is at now. E-mail or PM us so we can find out more about your game.
On behalf of Miura Golf, I would like to inform the readers here that anyone who is interested to visit the factory to see that the forging is all done in house is most welcome to.
You can contact Bill Hollowaty at [email protected]
Hi Stanley, thanks for posting. I’d like to take that offer up. I’m here in Japan and would love to check it out. (^_^)
The allegations in this article to the effect that Miura does not forge its own clubs are absolutely false. There were never any stage photos of Miura-san at another factory.
Mr. Miura owns the forge that is in Amaji, the same town as our factory. All Miura irons, wedges and putters are forged there. All our forged clubs are made in this location, and nowhere else, by us, and no one else.
Adam Barr
President
Miura Golf
Hi Adam,
I would love to set the record straight. I’m not attached to whether or not they do forge their own clubs it’s just that not a single person in the Japan golf industry including factory workers & owners back up what you say. I’ll do another round of asking though just for you. I do not want bad info here about your brand.
From Miura USA’s side I’ve heard own a portion, then majority, and now your saying they own it all. Another thing is you call it by “the factory in Amaji” not the name everyone else knows it by.
Also from the very start Miura USA has given TSG a very cold shoulder. Perhaps we should clear the air and improve the relationship.
So, did Gocchin or TSG get invited after all? What was the process with MB 5003, cuz those felt GREAT!
Nope I never got invited though I’d still love to go!
So what is the end of this story? Has anyone went to check it out as invited?
All I can say is this I am on my third set of Miura Irons the lastest being Passing Point 9003 straight necks. They have superior feel to any other forged iron from the major manufactures