The controvery continues and for those who know me I welcome this sort of debate. I first want to say this is nothing personal against Scratch Golf or Ari Techner. As a person Ari is a wonderful guy, very positive and helpful to all that encouter him. Nothing personal Ari and you’re welcome to come in here and debate this with us or on the TSG forum. Our members are NOT the fanboy type that will back me up wrong or right. We have a mature crowd that is of a different demographic than other golf websites.
Did you miss the original post that started this controversy? Click Here to catch up: How Much Do You Think You Know About Japanese Golf Club Manufacturing?
Some are asking what are my credentials? Without tooting my own horn to much I will simply say I have been deep involved in the Japanese golf industry for about 8 years. I’ve lived in Japan and travel there at least 3 times a year. For those who doubt, please find another person who has been inside the Endo factory multiple times, been inside Miura and just about every grind house and foundry from Osaka to Ichikawa cho and Himeji. I’m able to pick up the phone or make contact with Japanese engineers who run the forging presses, grind the golf clubs, and produce the CAD. The contacts go up to some of the executives on personal level. Outside of Japan, I have been inside Taiwan & Chinese factories some of the biggest.
Last thing I will say is since TSG started 8 years ago the amount of revenue added to the Japan Golf Indusry, not only our TSG sales, but sales of importers from Korea, China, S.E Asia, Middle East and other countries is estimated at over a half billion U.S dollars. I wish even a fraction of that was our sales, but it was our global marketing and the exposure to other countries that created the market and demand for these clubs. That is where the leverage and connections began.
Ari had a response to my last write up in another golf forum: Click “Read More” to check it out….
Ari Wrote:
That entire writeup is completely untrue. We used to work with Chris from Tour Spec Golf but stopped after he told me over and over again that he only cared about making sales and how much money he was making from a product and kept trying to get me to give him better margins so he “could” promote us more. He says what he thinks will help him sell the products that he is selling and has told me that specifically more than once.
We pay extra for our forgings that are made from 1018 carbon steel compared to what we would pay for 1025 or something harder. We even have higher minimums because we use an extra forging step. We use 1018 carbon steel because in our testing most players preferred the feel of it compared to the other metals that we tested. This specifically has helped us land Tour players Ryan Moore and Cristie Kerr who both cite feel as the main reason they play our clubs. I have been to the foundry in Japan many times and watched the whole process. The only Scratch clubs that are made in China are our 8620 wedges which are cast from 8620 “carbon” steel.
Ok so Ari has been in the foundry that produces his forged clubs. This is true. It was several of years ago and I know this because I saw the factory rep at the golf show and they said that we just missed them. In Ari’s respone he does nothing to debate the specifics of my statements. He simply says that the only clubs that are made in China are 8620 wedges…
If he read our article, which I know he has several times, he would see that I don’t claim they make their so-called 1018 heads in China. I actually saw their heads being produced in Japan! What I am disputing is that it’s not made of 1018 because I think it’s made of 1025 or S25C. The factories that produce his product doesn’t offer 1018 they use S25C JIS. There is no JIS 1018, so if he wants to continue to say he is using an acceptable quality of 1018 its not true. Scratch used 1018 as a marketing angle from the start. Maybe they didn’t know that 1018 is a not a good material to use for golf clubs, but in reality I am saying they use JIS S25C and that is a much better material than 1018. From a metallurgy stand point i just talked their product up, but from a marketing stand point they have been exposed.
I have confirmation from multiple reputable sources even at the materials supply level. If he wants to stand by his claims of using 1018, he will have to admit of using a very poor quality material for golf clubs.
Let’s look at this a different way. Ari says they have higher minimums due to the extra forging step. May I ask what exactly is this extra step so that I can research and confirm it with our contacts in Japan? Scratch Golf claimed to have 1018 7 years ago when they were unknown and didn’t have minimums. Another way to look at this is why haven’t any other Japanese golf companies adopted1018 and this so called extra forging step? Why has Scratch claimed “Ishihara Forged” when Ishihara never had a forging press. Ishihara of MOZ worked from a small grind studio/golf shop in Himeji. Did Scratch not know or were they misleading the public? Why were we told that the TSG wedge was 1018 Ishihara forged when it was produced of S25C at Kyoei?
Here is my opinion in a nutshell:
– They use S25C for their 1018 wedges or 1018 imported from China (my opinion: based on the fact that there is no 1018 forged in Japan.)
– Ishihara was not a foundry, yet Scratch stated otherwise countless times (fact)
– They lied about our TSG wedge being 1018 Ishihara forged (fact)
In regards to his comments about me only caring about sales, that is a lie. I will tell you the truth! Scratch has Great Margins! The brands we offer currently have much worse margins. When a product is open model meaning not an original design and they simply stamp their logo on it, the profit margin for scratch is significantly better vs brands who invest in R&D and produce molds that cost at least 8 million yen ( 80,000 USD ) per iron set and requiring 2000+ set’s to sell to break even. If you need proof of that simply look at the same head as the AR-1 offered by Geotech at less than half the price. All of their heads have been used in Japan for almost 10 years and are always near half the price that scratch sells them for. So yes Scratch has great margins!
Those who know me understand that I am critical on quality from autos to food to golf clubs and I have even cut brands from our line up because of this. That’s the reason why we had problems promoting Scratch due to quality issues. This has changed, I will be the first to admit that the product is on par now with others, but 5 years ago this was not the case. This has been the situation with many brands. For example it happend with Yururi. We removed the line, they fixed the product, we added it back. Same with George Spirits we had QC issues they fixed it and we plan on brining it back. Sky Dream Jump is fixing the issues as well so we can move forward to promote the brand with confidence. When you spend $200 bucks on a wedge it sure as hell be better made than the $99.00 wedge in your local proshop especially if TSG is going to stand behind it.
So in the end let’s stick to facts that can be backed up or this will simply go on and on. Ari submit me a materials certificate from the factory that produces your heads and I will confrim it. But outside of that we know you were not truthful about Ishihara forged & telling us our TSG wedge was made of 1018.
Anyhow We are submitting samples to the METL (Metals Engineering and Testing Laboratory in Phoenix) to get to the bottom of this. Not only Scratch golf clubs but metal heads from about ten different brands and we will be more than happy to apologize and report all findings if we are incorrect. If the testing shows their wedges to be made of 1018 then we know the quality of steel they use is under par and not recommended for golf club production.
Yeah I think Scratch lied, thinking that generic American consumers would never find out. But he didn’t count on TSG to be so precise and caring!
Unfortunately, WRX has locked all the posts about the controversy.
The Blog post was not directed at Scratch. They like Miura were examples of the Japanese Golf Manufacturing misconceptions. We personally thought the bigger news would be about Miura. But, as it turns out Scratch is where this controversy is directed by members and commentors, and we need to respond to a few accusations.
What I am stating is well-known Japanese golf industry knowledge.
These are FACTS:
1. Mr. Ishihara of MOZ: The famous wedge grinder and hand polisher who founded the brand MOZ and died 2 years ago from stomach cancer. He did not forge golf clubs.
2. Ishihara-Shoten : This is a middle man company that works between manufactures and the actual factories. They do not forge golf clubs.
3, Ishihara Store : This is the company that recieved the rights to Ishihara MOZ brand with a trademark transfer. They are only a golf shop. They do not forge golf clubs.
4. 1018 Steel is not JIS (Japan Industry Standard). That means that the quality is not up to the Japanese standards for production in any industry such as auto, electronics, even nails. It can only be found in mainland China.
5. Scratch is using Open Model Heads for all 3 irons despite saying they are their original molds. It’s proven that their iron heads are Open Model catalog heads that have existed for almost 10 years at half the price. We questioned them about this several years back.
6. The so called TSG 1018 Ishihara Forged wedge wedge controversy ( It was actually S25C produced by Kyoei )
We can however give them some benefit of the doubt as they do not deal directly with manufactures and use Ishihara-Shoten as a middle man. So they may not know exactly what is happening on the production end of their product.
If anyone disputes this please comment in our forum or in the blogs. I welcome the debate and will not lock or close the topic. Ari is welcome here also.
This debate about 1018 steel has me somewhat confused.
So in Japan they do not have a steel that is the equivalent of 1018 Carbon steel, because the Japanese foundrys dont believe they can control the quality to high enough margins. But then 1018 steel is exactly the same as any other carbon steel, it is just the carbon content that changes.
I know of plenty of companies throughout Europe that can produce 1018, 1025, whatever carbon steel to tolerances that are extremely high quality, they control what goes into the steel and therefore dictate the quality.
So the reason im confused….so in China the 1018 carbon steel is deemed to be low quality and a mish mash of ingredients…..in Japan they dont have or use 1018 because they feel it is inferior.
Should your statement really be, Chinese quality controls for 1018 steel are so poor that the Japanese will not use them, and will not copy them…because like i say, the quality of any steel depends on what you put in it, and you cannot simply say ANY 1018 steel is poor quality, because that isnt the case.
Anywho, its not really along the lines of the debate, but i didnt think it fair to call out 1018 steel all over the world as poor quality, because that is factually incorrect, as your research is based in Asia.
You make several good points James, a few things I would correct is that it isnt only the carbon content that is reason why it will not be JIS certified but also the tolorance of other minerals, strength, and PSI. In europe they of course don’t use JIS, I think they have EN & ASCI which not as scrutinized as JIS, I haven’t researched if it meets EU standards. ASCI 1018 is considered to have a relatively low tensile strength, but it is cheap and malleable.
We are big supporters of Japanese quality and the company in question has been making claims that were untrue and causing confusion to those who are not as educated about the manufacturing process in Japan.
The carbon content itself can overlap in 1018 steel just as other JIS materals can overlap but the range of that overlap and the amount it can overlap in carbon AND other minerals is not acceptable. This isn’t only a carbon issue.
JIS ( Japan Industry Standard ) is very important to us and our customers it certifies the level of quality the material of a golf club is made at in our industry. To put it another way IMO it’s like comparing USDA PRIME grade beef to USDA CHOICE graded beef in america. The beef must have a certain amount of fat to be considered USDA highest grade, well in this case the metal must meet not only carbon but other mineral amounts and then tolorance and tensile strength requirements to hit the bare minimum of the JIS grading system.
The Japanese Industry Standard system is used across just about every industry in Japan. In fact there has been controversy when a Japan home builder built homes using non JIS materials and parts and was heavily criticized due to the homes durability during an earthquake. There have also been complaints when appliances have malfunctioned causing harm or fire and the non JIS parts were part of the focus or blame. If there was a building made of 1018 vs S25C and a fire broke out the home made of 1018 in theory would crumble first.
For the Japanese in the golf equipment industry and taiwanese they did not need to do any research to know that 1018 was not up to par. It was a matter of simply mentioning it and each of our sources said along the lines of ” thats not from here ” It’s a mainland China material.
The company in question is supposed to be of the highest quality in golf as advertised, Could you imagine a fine dine resturaunt service CHOICE grade beef and passing it off as PRIME to it’s customers.
Your Message@Tourspecgolfer:
Ah, thanks for taking the time to respond. I did assume your concerns were based around the Japanese standards etc. It was just as i say, i know a lot of companies that undertake forgings, castings and in all my conversations and interactions with these companies they can make extremely high quality and tightly controlled metals, whether it be carbon, stainless, silver, spring or any other kind of steel.
It would be interesting to cross check all the different standards.
Anyway, sorry for digressing slightly, im just a bit of a metal geek and thought you were referencing all 1018 steel. In any case i enjoyed reading your post and am interested to see the outcome.
i applaud you for bringing this to our attention. i see that the Scratch Golf Fanboys over on WRX pretty much drove you off their website with their personal attacks and death wishes. you stay classy WRX! i love how they locked the thread because Scratch is a sponsor there. Good, let the Scratch fanboys keep thinking their clubs are made from 1018 soft carbon steel. Ari just kept dodging your questions. He never generated a Materials Data Cert, just an Order Form that even looked altered, so that pdf file he uploaded over there proved NOTHING. Let them believe all the lies Scratch Golf feeds them. They will believe ANYTHING Ari tells them. Its disgusting. Kudos to you for bringing this up and I cant wait for the truth to come out.
Thanks JCH,
Let’s not get to crazy on WRX, they are a big board and have to keep bad press off their airwaves.
In regards to Scratch I actually hope they are made of 1018 because from our latest findings the only reason to use it is to save money. If it comes out they are made of S25C then they actually have a better product than figured or at least its on par with JIS standards and other Japanese wedge brands.
Yea the backlash against me on a personal level was very immature stuff like “Your a Waste of a Life”, ” Dishonest Con Man” and things that wish personal harm against me but no worries in the real world i have a feeling these guy’s dont have the courage to it say to my face.
I always felt that Scratch was a bit “iffy” if you know what I mean? And to top it off, why would a Pro who mostly have handicaps of Plus, want to be known as a scratch player? LOL I hope you are able to present to the world and Scratch Golf the correct information.
Thanks Rod, I am not the only person who knows this stuff. There are several Japanese OEMs in the U.S that have staff who know this already on top of just about everyone in Japan.
Also IMO because Scratch is participating on all the major golf forums directly they are able to create die hard loyal fans that really dont care what the truth is. This has helped scratch surpress the amount of public complaints they have had over super long wait times and QC issues.
yeah, thats another thing ive heard about Scratch, long wait times. Waiting 2-3 months for clubs. wtf??? i couldnt wait that long. and yeah, the personal attacks against you on WRX were crazy. one guy even wrote he hopes your plane crashes the next time you fly (i think/hope they deleted that one though). it amazes me that someone would wish DEATH upon you for something like this. talk about a fanboy, holy cow!!! its disgusting. also, what really gets me is that Ari is saying he owns all the molds for his irons, but they are actually open molds. what a lying shyster. you know, even if you come out prove all of this to be 100% true, the Scratch fanboys still wont believe you. They will believe what Ari tells them to believe. ugh
Your Message@Tourspecgolfer:
yea we hear a lot of complaints about that from many people and we don’t even sell the product. based on shipping invoices found online it appears they boat ship it from Japan which adds another 30+ days to the lead time.
I do know it takes 30-40 days tops to produce golf clubs from forging-grinding-plating. It would be nice if they EMS express shipped their custom orders directly to the customer from Japan.
YHere is my issue. As far as Scratch is concerned, you most likely right. I put a review on WRX and they bashed me so fast it was not funny. Some saying I dont like the feel of a true soft feel.
I read about your comment on Miura. I talked to Bill VP. he says to me that he has called you and emailed you to straighten this out and you have yet to call him back. That to me would only mean that your not fully telling the truth!!!
So what is it?
Your Message@Mat:
I can say with all honesty that is not true at all.
We reached out to him on March 7th and 10th and have proof of that.
We contacted him twice in 2009 as well.
I called him today and he recognizes your email to him ( says you wrote not talked ) and he thinks you took his comments way out of context when I asked him about this.
Not saying anything against you but he denies that he said he has left messages and emailed me. He says that he only said he has never spoken to me on the phone.
You can clear this up by sending the response to me via email.
how long until you get the results back? im really curious how this plays out
Your Message i WOULD LIKE TO AD A LITTLE SPICE TO THIS SCRATCH GOLF MYSELF, I ORDERED CLUBS FROM THEM FEW YEARS AGO AND THEY MADE ME WAIT 3 FRIGIN MONTHS FR EM ABSOLUTELY LUDICRIS, WEN I GT EM THEY THE RIGHT LENGTH I ORDERED . FOR THEM TO MAKE A PERSON WAIT THAT LONG FR IRONS THEY R JUST TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE BELEIVE THEY R BEING MADE FROM SCRATCH,YA RIGHT ALL THEY DO IS PUT DIFFERENT STAMPS ON EM WHICH SHOULD TAKE WHAT 15 MIN TO DO . SCRATCH NEVER AGAIN.
The AR-1 irons on the Scratch web page say:
Scratch AR-1 irons are forged from 1018 carbon steel, the softest steel used by anyone making golf clubs today. The raw heads are then ground and finished completely by hand. The end result is the finest hand made forged traditional cavity back irons in golf, customized for your game. The headshape of the AR-1 irons was inspired by Scratch’s work with Tour Pros from around the globe. Specific attention was paid to the transition from the middle irons to the short irons to assure perfect flow throughout the set from the 3 iron down to the PW.
Yet, in the TSG catalog, they look identical to me.
So I’d like to ask about the following:
“The headshape of the AR-1 irons was inspired by Scratch’s work with Tour Pros from around the globe. ”
is that true?
er, iI neglected to say look identical to what?
to the Geotech irons…found int eh TSG catalog…
I don’t really understand what this is all about. You can’t tell the difference in all these grades of metal. No one can. They are just trying to market their product. Every company on the planet earth does this. You should find something else to do with your time.
@John:
Thanks John,
Do you know of any companies saying their product is made of something it isn’t?
I dont know of any other companies that’s major marketing point is where its forged yet the place they mentioned doesnt forge anything?
They claimed that Ishihara 1018 is the softest forged steel in golf clubs. Most don’t think that’s true. Now imagine if the company that marketed that didnt actually use 1018 like they said they do…
Seems to me that Ari and Scratch know what they are doing, the Japanese company is a turnkey company, who realy cares where they get their steel from? Ari and Scratch back up their product, and quite frankly its relief to know that us happy hackers have somehwere we can got to besides a golf store or pro shop where the local “expert” is going to sell us the deal thats best for him. I doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate your reviews and continuous pounding of manufacturs, just look at the big picture and with regard to profit that Scratch are making, the more they make, the better for the golfer as I am sure they stick a lot back into R & D, and are fully entitled to put some of it into a nice 911…:) Thats the free market way, ain’t it? The thought that is pondering my already wrecked brain, is can Scratch Golf keep up the customer service as they grow into a larger corporation? Great wedges by the way.
Hey Roy, It’s not a Japanese company nor is it a turnkey company.
The most common type of turnkey business is a franchise. A turnkey business is a business that includes everything you need to immediately start running the business.
The question is not where they get their steel from, It’s what they advertise it to be:
1. Both the wedges and irons are not 1018 as advertised
2. 1018 is not the softest steel in golf as advertised
3. It is not Ishihara forged as advertised
Let’s consider this a neutral experience, The customer and the industry thinks it’s one thing when it is actually another.
Yo Roy!
Its all about free market and exposing the false marketing, the extra money they are making isn’t going to R & D duh! Don’t you get it? They are using 10 year old open MOLDED heads, stamping their little fancy S logo. Nothing original, and selling it your dumbass because you thought those good players might finally ask you to join them because you spent $1200 on a set of generic irons!
Tourspecgolfer (Chris)
Great job being Inspector Clouseau … this is the type of thing the golf industry needs. I’ve played golf now for over 10 years and I’ve found the quality control to fall less and less.
Now all we have to do is to get you to check out the quality of graphite shafts… there is no standard in shafts — would love for you to attack that market.
Your freind and mine,
Cray.
Get after the golf tee industry. I think a lot of the manufacturers aren’t using real wood.